45518 tag

[texian]

i tagged 45518 Attraction and Back Rank Mate  .. i'm pretty confident about those tags .. even though a mate doesn't occur, it is the threat of one that enables the capture of the opposing queen .. attraction seems a little odd here since the solution is to passively allow the attack initiated by the black queen on the opening move, but the queen was certainly attracted

here are the "definitions" i'm using:

Attraction:"Attraction or Decoying occurs when a player entices a piece to a square (often using a sacrifice) where it will later come under attack." I've noticed some authors see this as a synonym for decoy, while others don't agree. [Richard]

Back Rank Mate: This one is pretty obvious, though I have used it on some problems where a back rank mate didn't actually exist, but some advantage was obtained due to the threat of a back rank mate. [dlester]

my question is should we include Pawn Promotion as a tag?

for me, i spent most of my time examining the prospects of promotion before looking elsewhere .. therefore, in reviewing a custom problem set i'd like to see this as a counter example when considering promotion problems

what do you all think?

[drahacikfm]

texian, I don't mean to disappoint you on this one!  But it's not bank rank mate or attraction (or pawn promotion).

1.Nh4 threatens the nice combination 2.Ng6+ hxg6 3.Rh3 mate!  This has nothing to do with bank rank mate or with attraction.

Black plays 1...Qxe3 to stop that threat, and loses his queen for a rook.  And the problem is over.  There were never any threats by White to do a bank rank mate or to do a pawn promotion.  And there was no attraction ... which is offering some free material to get a piece to move to a bad square where you can then attack it.  Usually attraction is getting the king to take a free piece, and then you mate it on that new square.

For attraction, think of a mouse trap.  You put some nice cheese on it, the mouse goes to eat the cheese, and Wham! He is caught.  The cheese is the piece you are giving away.

As for the correct tag for this problem, it's not so clear.  I might label it "Exposed King", because after Ng6+ the king will be so exposed that it's mate in one move.  Also "Sacrifice" because Ng6+ sacrifices a knight.

[texian]

no disappointment, pal, that's why i asked .. but obviously tagging, like chess, isn't a simple sport 

seeing the 2.Ng6+ hxg6 3.Rh3# sequence and the king trapped at h1, i considered it a "back rank mate" threat .. it hadn't occurred to me that 1...Qxe3 totally stops that threat .. so, like pawn promotion it was the threat i was focusing on more than the actual solution move .. at least the correct tag is "not so clear" to you .. that is some consolation   

however, i don't clearly see it as an "exposed king" especially since the 2.Ng6+ is no longer an option .. for me, when i label a problem "exposed king" the king is generally out in the open in the orginal position .. but dlester's definition clarifies that a bit as the "threat on the king" is certainly a part of the initial Nh4 move

EXPOSED KING:  I use this tag a lot.  If an attack on the king, or a threat of an attack on the king is any part of the tactical motif I throw this tag on there.  It is very generic, and since many of the puzzles do involve some kind of tactic relevant to king safety this one is almost always accurate. [dlester]

regarding attraction, it seems by leaving the rook under attack by the queen, i am baiting the trap, indeed forcing it - smells like cheese to me    while on attraction, you said, "Usually attraction is getting the king to take a free piece, and then you mate it on that new square." .. i recently labelled a problem just like that as attraction, but i have more frequently seen examples where a piece, other than the king, is offered to be subsequnetly taken .. the next time i run across one of those, i'll confirm it with you to be sure

"Sacrifice" doesn't seem to apply either, since, once again, giving up the knight in 2.Ng6+ hxg6 is not happening and giving up the rook for the queen in 1...Qxe3 isn't a sacrifice .. is it? for me, it is bait

i realize that my reference source for descriptions is unofficial, at best .. i've attached my current text file which i am now using for when making tagging decisions .. it includes the link to the orginal replies by dlester and Richard which i consolidated and am adding  to with enhancements from you and others as i encounter them .. maybe you could take a few minutes to review them or maybe Richard will provide some more official ones soon .. my goal with this is to create for myself and anyone interested a reference guide with hyperlinks to "approved" examples of each problem type .. right now it is a simle text file

thanks again for the reply, Drahacik  .. i'd like to contribute to the tagging effort, but i want to get it right .. i'm not quite sure how or why, but it feels like developing a working a familiarity with tagging problems like this will directly contribute to solving them as well, both here and OTB .. so, corrections and suggestions are most appreciated .. fear not, i'll get one right soon 

btw, i omitted the "Back Rank Mate" tag, but left "Attraction" in place (it still looks like cheese to me) .. feel free to ammend as you or others would like

[drahacikfm]

I still don't see the rook on e3 as attraction.  It's a protected piece.  Black just takes it because he wants to stop the mate.  We aren't tricking Black into taking that rook.  He knows he loses his queen, but he does it anyway, because worse things happen to him if he doesn't 

It's general practice to add tags for the motifs that didn't occur in the problem, but which forced the opponent to give away material.  Such as in this case, the threat of the Sacrifice Ng6 forced Black to lose by giving queen for rook.  So Sacrifice is ok for this problem.

Back rank mate is only when a rook or a queen is going to move to the 8th rank and mate a king which is also on the 8th rank.  It's not applied to cases where the Black king is on the 8th rank and it gets mated by some piece that is not on the 8th rank.  The Rh3 mate is not on the back rank.  The rook is on the 3rd rank.

[texian]

ahhh, ok, "We aren't tricking Black into taking that rook" convinces me .. i now see why attraction may be more subtle than i had thought .. i mean, if you know the mousetrap will catch you, but you're willing to risk it for the cheese, it isn't really a trap is it .. sorry for being so hard-headed, but we all have opinions, eh -- some are just worth a lot less than others 

btw, i changed the tag to "Sacrifice" .. but honestly, that tag is prone to being mis-interpreted as sacrificing the rook to the queen which of course is no sacrifice, not the potential knight sacrifice .. this tagging stuff is getting complicated, but still most interesting .. thanks again for the feedback