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Author Topic: deflation in the fide rating  (Read 7008 times)
uri blass
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« on: Aug 01, 2013, 05:05:14 PM »

I checked the number of fide rated players with rating above 2200 and in 1.5.2012 there were more players with fide rating above 2200.
The first number in every line is number of players in the rating range in 1.5.2012 and the second number is number of players in the rating range in 1.8.2013

2201-2300 12673 12406
2301-2400 5351  5288
2401-2500 2026  2021
2501-2600 686   666
2601-2700 187  192
2701-2800 41    44
2801-2900  4      3

You can see that the number of strong players at the rating 2201-2400 go down inspite of the fact that we have more chess players and it shows a deflation in the rating list because I do not believe that the level of specific place in the world do not go up.

There are of course players who get worse but there are also players who get better and there are clearly more chess players and more active chess players in the fide list.

I believe that the reason for the deflation is the fact that fide reduced the rating floor.
Players with low fide rating can improve faster than players with high fide rating and the players with low fide rating simply take rating points from players with high fide rating.

If fide does not change the rating rules then I expect to see in the future also less players with rating above 2700.
 
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uri blass
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 01, 2013, 10:20:45 PM »

Some more data:

Rating of place 2000 in the fide rating list under 20 years old

july 2004 2140
july 2013 2061

http://www.ferimex.com/icc/frl.php?list=50&country=0&title=0&sex=1&year=14&old=0&cat=1&size=9&update=yes
http://www.ferimex.com/icc/frl.php?list=0&country=0&title=0&sex=1&year=3&old=0&cat=1&size=9&update=yes

 
Edit I deleted some comparison about girls that had a mistake.
« Last Edit: Aug 01, 2013, 10:29:31 PM by uri blass » Logged
richard
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 01, 2013, 11:23:24 PM »

I believe that the reason for the deflation is the fact that fide reduced the rating floor.
Players with low fide rating can improve faster than players with high fide rating and the players with low fide rating simply take rating points from players with high fide rating.

I agree that this is almost certainly the reason. It is common to see rapidly improving juniors rated say 1400 FIDE regularly beating 1800 FIDE rated adult players. It was probably worse before they shifted to monthly rating updates, but for areas where there is few opportunities to play FIDE rated tournaments, there is still probably a big lag on rapidly improving players between their current rating and their true skill level. 

You see this kind of thing playing out at the local level, where adults join a club with lots of junior players, and over the next few months their rating takes a big dive when they lose lots of games to underrated juniors. Before the rating floor was dropped, this problem was much smaller, as improvement speed at 1800 is going to be much slower than improvement speed at 1300, so the gap between current rating and actual ability wasn't so large in the past.

Richard.
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asterion
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 02, 2013, 07:32:52 AM »

Yes Uri, I've observed the same phenomena here in France, and I think your explanation is right. That's also why a FIDE rating in the 2000-2100 range is a very uncomfortable place to be nowadays, as you meet a lot of these strong up and rising juniors (plenty of them hover between 1800 and 2000 elo).

For example, last year, I met a 15-year old in an open. He was rated ~1870 at the time, but was obviously very talented and underrated. On the last FIDE list, he is 2085 (+200 in one year, not bad !) and has just posted a 2370 (!) perf in a recent 9-rd open...

I think you're a bit less impacted by this when you get closer to 2200, as you meet less of those underrated kids (or they're closer to their real strength).
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uri blass
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 02, 2013, 08:50:45 AM »

I believe that the deflation start to have effect also on higher levels because even if they do not play directly against underrated 1800 players they play against players who lost rating against them and this is the reason that I expect to see
less active players with fide rating above 2300 in the future.

Personally I am frustrated to lose fide rating points not because of reduction in my playing strength and.
today I have only 1975 that is almost my worst fide rating.

http://ratings.fide.com/id.phtml?event=2803968
 
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uri blass
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 02, 2013, 10:42:48 AM »

I can add that I am surprised not to find my name before july 2007 when fide had me in the rating list already in july 2006

Here are the fide details

http://ratings.fide.com/id.phtml?event=2803968

based on
http://www.ferimex.com/icc/frl.php?list=19&country=27&title=0&sex=0&year=0&old=0&cat=0&size=9&update=yes

I am not in the list for april 2007
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interlist
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 03, 2013, 03:37:05 AM »

I remember reading about this topic not too long ago at chessville.com, in a series of articles entitled "The Black Hole in Chess Ratings" . It's unfortunate that the site is defunct, but the articles can still be found using the internet archive

The Black Hole in Chess Ratings - 1
The Black Hole in Chess Ratings - 2
The Black Hole in Chess Ratings - 3

It's a series of three articles by David Mallot, founder of Chess Express Ratings. I haven't reread them, but I have the impression that I found them informative when originally reading them. The general term for this has become known as the "Black Hole Effect" in chess.

I know rating system changes has been a hot item for the USCF, and remember reading about the great unhappiness many senior players felt about rating deflation due to scholastic players. I couldn't find a good reference, and am unsure exactly where I came across it. Still, I think I remember several players so unhappy they stopped tournament play.

I did find a recent article on the USCF about a new rule change in the ratings - concerning the K-factor, which affects the speed at which ratings change (and therefore effects deflation by attempting to speed the approach to equilibrium of mis-adjusted ratings). It's here if anybody is interested:

USCF: K-Factor Change - May 2013

Of course, other people think the main problem with ratings isn't deflation, but inflation. For instance, see this article:

Rating inflation – its causes and possible cures

at chessbase.com.
« Last Edit: Aug 03, 2013, 03:52:03 AM by interlist » Logged

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uri blass
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 03, 2013, 08:04:15 AM »

The article of Jeff Sonas is from 2009 and I think that things changed since fide reduced the rating floor.

In the past new players who got slightly above the rating floor and lost were simply lucky and continued to lose rating points when fide reduced the rating floor.

I doubt if today most of the  players who get rating slightly above 1000 are going to lose rating points and I think that even if most of them are lucky to be slightly above the rating floor they learn and improve.

today there are 54 players with rating below 1050 and it may be interesting to follow them to see if they lose or win more rating points in the next lists.
 
 26025809    Baradat, Mats               FRA   1026                   2003   M   
 25031287    Bipraditya Mukhopadhyay               IND   1033                   2002   M   
 1931890    Cunha, Alexandre Almeida               POR   1030                   2003   M   
 25074636    Deepak K R               IND   1032                   2001   M   
 32039530    Garcia Almeida, Aitana               ESP   1041                   2002   F   
 1199692    Gorniak, Weronika               POL   1023                   2001   F   
 46600957    Harish V               IND   1047                   2004   M   
 35062123    Hemanathan C               IND   1027                   2006   M   
 35091603    Hiran Banerjee               IND   1050                   2001   M   
 25801368    Ilia, Anastasia               GRE   1027      1047      1070     2004   F   
 35084666    Isa Aminah               IND   1025                   2004   F   
 46617914    Kaushik S               IND   1027                   2003   M   
 35071696    Kingston K J               IND   1048                   1999   M   
 25081233    Krishnanand S Pai               IND   1007                   2001   M   
 35054805    Krishnasagar P V               IND   1040                   2002   M   
 35059556    Kulkarni Varad               IND   1030      1323            2004   M   
 32065973    Lopez Escribano, Andrea               ESP   1029                   2002   F   
 35045156    Mahadev M               IND   1047                   2001   M   
 26053586    Maleki, Alyette               FRA   1039                   1952   F   
 4294661    Marinakis, Hristos               GRE   1030                   2003   M   
 26053454    Martignoni, Margaux               FRA   1045                   2003   F   
 35006983    Mistry Tinaz Dinkoo               IND   1016                   2004   F   
 25059378    Mukund suresh               IND   1037                   2002   M   
 46604596    Naik Siddharth               IND   1015                   2002   M   
 35067389    Nayak Swayamsidh               IND   1050                   2001   M   
 35048848    Nicknesar Anto A               IND   1038                   2004   M   
 35036645    Nikhil Hakeem               IND   1034                   2004   M   
 21801347    Ostaszewski, Bartlomiej               POL   1048                   2002   M   
 26092654    Oupindrin, Adora               FRA   1041                   2002   F   
 35017160    Paikaray Ashutosh               IND   1002                   2001   M   
 35053779    Parthasarathy N V               IND   1046                   1954   M   
 25091832    Patra Ayush               IND   1018                   2004   M   
 35099078    Peter M Jose               IND   1035                   2003   M   
 5071143    Rajesh K               IND   1033                   1985   M   
 35049151    Rakshith, Ashok Kumar               IND   1046                       M   
 35012452    Ramachandran S M               IND   1007             1251     2002   M   
 35072757    Ravi Teja R               IND   1007                   2000   M   
 21804745    Rog, Szymon               POL   1040                   2003   M   
 35090216    Rohan Raju, Sathis kumar               IND   1045                   2004   M   
 35084402    Sanjay ,S               IND   1031                   1996   M   
 35007459    Saran G               IND   1006                   2004   M   
 35053973    Saraswathi P L               IND   1011                   1998   F   
 25083635    Sasidhar P               IND   1044                   1989   M   
 25057235    Shah Agam               IND   1017                   1998   M   
 25041568    Shah Jiya               IND   1029                   2004   F   
 35054031    Shalini J               IND   1036                   2003   F   
 35009826    Shanmugam PCK               IND   1039                   1951   M   
 25042602    Shruthi K               IND   1021                   2000   F   
 35051423    Siva Sai Sugandhi Ch               IND   1026                   2003   F   
 35070630    Sivaprakash ,N               IND   1014      1013            2000   M   
 25081799    Som Swarupam Sinha               IND   1015                   1984   M   
 25002260    Sujin, S               IND   1002                   1997   M   
 25054708    Tamilarasi A               IND   1042                   2002   M   
 35096613    Vishal Koushik P               IND   1016                   2000   M   
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interlist
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 03, 2013, 12:36:08 PM »

The article of Jeff Sonas is from 2009 and I think that things changed since fide reduced the rating floor.

The Sonas article on chessbase is from 2009, but he does address the impact on overall ratings of pre-2009 changes to the ratings floor - about half way down the article (just before his conclusions). Here is a quote:

Quote

Finally, I would like to explain my current theory as to why there is inflation. I first heard this explanation in Athens from Nick Faulks, and I see no flaw in it. Here is how the argument goes

There was originally a very high rating floor. Over time it has gone lower and lower, but for a while it was 2200. This meant if your rating was calculated to be 2200+, then you would show up on the FIDE list, but if your rating was calculated to be below 2200, then you would completely disappear from it. That's why for a long time there were no men rated below 2200 (the women had a lower rating floor initially, I think). You can clearly see the impact of the rating floor of 2200 and then (later) 2000 in this stacked area graph which indicates the overall distribution of players across time:



Now let's think about how it was back when the rating floor was 2200. Consider a hypothetical group of active players, all of whom have a performance rating of 2000 across all their games. Some of those players will certainly outperform their true 2000-strength for a short time, and others will underperform. Only those players from our group that outperform their true strength will make it onto the rating list, whereas the players who underperform will not be anywhere on the list. This means the players who show up on the rating list just above the rating floor, are (as a group) significantly overrated, just waiting to donate rating points to the rest of the pool. Even worse, while these overrated players keep temporary possession of their 2200+ ratings, other players may also receive inflated initial ratings as well, based partially on games against the overrated players. Over time, the overrated players will do worse than their ratings suggest, and their excess rating points will ultimately be distributed throughout the entire rating pool.

If this argument were true, you would expect to see that provisional players (i.e. those players who have not yet played 30 games) on average are actually losing rating points during their time as provisional players. And in fact this is what the data does appear to show. Although you would think that newer players are still improving and would in fact gain points on average, it seems clear that provisional players are actually being overrated. This needs more investigation, and I still don't fully understand why the inflation rate has changed so much over time.

[...]

It would be very interesting if Sonas were to publish an update to the older article - with new data and any changes in his ideas.


Quote
In the past new players who got slightly above the rating floor and lost were simply lucky and continued to lose rating points when fide reduced the rating floor.

I doubt if today most of the  players who get rating slightly above 1000 are going to lose rating points and I think that even if most of them are lucky to be slightly above the rating floor they learn and improve.

today there are 54 players with rating below 1050 and it may be interesting to follow them to see if they lose or win more rating points in the next lists.

[...]

Of course FIDE already provides a good indication of this, if you can trust extrapolation (always a bit more dodgy than interpolation), by tracking the performance of each member, and providing public access to it.

For example, here is FIDE data for the first player in your list:

Profile
Ratings Progress   (you probably want to look here)
Game Statistics
Full Report


For a USCF perspective, I found the following link. It's hot off the press (Aug 2013), but very detailed (what do you expect from Glickman?):

USCF Ratings Committee Report -- August 2013


« Last Edit: Aug 03, 2013, 02:21:53 PM by interlist » Logged

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uri blass
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 03, 2013, 02:31:09 PM »

Fide already provide information but I need to look in the future of  players with lower than 1050 rating and not in the past.

The problem is that the past is misleading because players who improved their rating list from 1020 to 1060 are not there when players who get down from 1060 to 1020 are there.
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 03, 2013, 05:05:46 PM »

Fide already provide information but I need to look in the future of  players with lower than 1050 rating and not in the past.

The problem is that the past is misleading because players who improved their rating list from 1020 to 1060 are not there when players who get down from 1060 to 1020 are there.

Well, you'll have to give us a follow-up with the data becomes available.

I looked at the few 10 or so players in the list just out of curiosity. Only then did I realize how dominated your list is by Indian players - most of which seem to have only very recently begun tournament play. It would be interesting to know how many continue tournament play.

I suppose every time the floor gets lowered there is some kind of diffusion process requiring many years to reach equilibrium. Perhaps it could be modeled in a mathematical fashion.

 
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