"Good Move Keep Looking."

[mick46]

"Good Move Keep Looking." Get rid of it!!!

[jadeiguana]

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why you feel the way you do...I'll admit it threw me off the first time I saw it (and the second...and each time since), but I, personally, like it as a feature.  I don't play blitz much and I can see where that might be very frustrating for a blitz player, but for standard play I think it's wonderful to know I've picked a solid move and not have to lose points for a move that is likely winning (just not as easily or quickly).

[richard]

Hi Mick,

It would be good if you could provide more details on the source of your dislike :-)  The notice could be a bit less obtrusive (the window *should* disappear when you press return, but for some reason that behaviour is not working and you need to explicitly click on the ok button). I can see a few seconds being wasted fumbling for the ok button which might be annoying in blitz.  Would you prefer not to be told when you have played an alternative move at all? I would find this a bit confusing unless you were also marked wrong for your alternative move.

Regards,
Richard.

[tmr]

I think this new feature is good also as I've had a lot of problems where the alternative move was pretty good also and I prefer more problems in the set rather than fewer.

I think though Richard should make more clear that the problem isn't over when you get this note.  If you don't find the "Best" move you can still get the problem wrong and lose points.  I didn't realize this and after I got the message, figuring the problem was over, just started moving random pieces.  No can do.  I got the problem marked wrong and lost points.

One thing Richard might want to impliment for this is the option to use the feature or not.  Those who find it bothersome can turn the feature off and lose points for selecting an alternate line.  Those who don't can activate the feature and continue looking.

[d-man]

I like it.

[drahacikfm]

I don't see why anyone would want to get marked wrong and lose rating points for playing a winning move, instead of having another chance to find the "best" move.  Maybe mick46 didn't understand what is going on when that message pops up.

Just to be completely clear:  When that message pops up, you have made a move that the computer thinks is winning, but it's not the move the computer thinks is best (highest evaluation).  Previously, you were marked wrong, which was not very satisfying, to play a winning move and lose rating points.  Now the problem continues, and if you find the "best" move, you get the problem marked correct.

It's a huge improvement to the site, in my opinion.

[richard]

I've changed the wording of the text slightly to encourage the user to keep looking (this language was in the dialog title but maybe that wasn't obvious enough).

I'm not that keen to make it optional. I agree with Drahacik , that users who think they want it as an option might not understand what is actually going on and I'll need to be clearer in the way I present things.  I do think there is an argument to present the information in a way that doesn't force the user to interact with the dialog (for the hardcore blitz users), and I'll probably look into ways of doing that at a later point.

Regards,
Richard.

[mick46]

I started as a guest at CTS, around 1126. It was very frustrating losing points after making the correct move. I just couldn't beat the 3 seconds! I'm 61 years old. Chess Tempo is much better, using the average time. I've improved about 300 points, since last fall. What I'm working on is to find the best move where it matters. With the new "Good Move Keep Looking" it seems to me that it is just too unreal and takes away from the speed of my learning. My correct responses keeps getting a little better and I really don't wish to throw in another variable into my learning. I don't think that "Good Move Keep Looking" will help me any faster than the way it was before. It will just make my rating unreal.

[d-man]

What I'm working on is to find the best move where it matters. With the new "Good Move Keep Looking" it seems to me that it is just too unreal and takes away from the speed of my learning.

But why would you want to be penalized for a move that would win a real life game? Even the masters play sub-par moves if they know they are safely winning.

My correct responses keeps getting a little better and I really don't wish to throw in another variable into my learning. I don't think that "Good Move Keep Looking" will help me any faster than the way it was before. It will just make my rating unreal.

How does letting you know you made a good move hurt your performance in any way? If you don't like it, just pretend it said "failed" and make a deliberately wrong move. This would be virtually identical.

[richard]

Hi mick46,

In my opinion, The "Good move keep looking" actually makes things more realistic not less realistic.  While it is true that you never get told in a real game, "Not bad, but look for a better move" the issue here is that the message only pops up in situations where the move you chose was not the one with the best evaluation but was good enough to win you the game (assuming best play by both sides after that point).  As others have pointed out it would be unrealistic to punish users for playing moves that may be a few points less in evaluation than the "best" move would have won them the game if played over the board. To put it another way, when you say, "What I'm working on is to find the best move where it matters.", what that message is pointing out is that in this case you didn't find the best move but IT DID NOT MATTER, as your move was good enough to win.

Regards,
Richard.

[tmr]

I came across the "Good Move ..." message again on problem 38751 when I took the queen instead of the rook (note that this is about 5 moves in).  I was surprised that when I completed the problem I was still marked correct and got a rating increase.  I thought selecting a good alternate move wasn't penalized but also didn't get any points (if the best line is found).  Or is that only when the alternate move is on the first move?

[richard]

Hi tmr,

Finding an alternative move should never prevent you from getting full points if you still select the best move , and this should be true irrespective of which move in the sequence you are on.  If you've found a situation where you played the best move after playing an alternative (but before playing a 'mistake' move of course), but did not get points then please let me know the problem number and the alternative move(s) you chose, as that would be a bug I need to fix.

Thanks,
Richard.

[tmr]

Thanks.  I think I understand it now.  Not sure why I didn't catch on.  Maybe because I've only had the "Good Move ..." show up twice so far.  Live and learn I guess.  The first time I thought the problem was over so I just moved at random and got marked wrong.  The other time was this one where it was hard to decide if I should exchange rooks before capturing the queen.  I'll need to go back and analyze that one because I still haven't figured why the rook exchange was better before the queen instead of after.

[richard]

tmr: Sometimes with the new problem set, the difference between the best move and the second best move can be quite small where the second best move was an allowed alternative. This can make it hard to see what the computer thought was the difference.  The next problem set update will enforce a reasonable gap between best and second best so that the reasons for the best move being preferred should always be reasonably obvious.

Regards,
Richard.

[tmr]

Thanks.  That will be a good addition.  I was just reviewing problem 40443 (which I missed) that has an alternate move of QxR some moves in which is less than 1/2 pawn different than the move sequence involving a check first and then a capture of the pawn.  The difference is really subtle and I'm sure would stump me at my skill level.

I suppose this will come at the expense of the size of the problem set and likely the number of harder problems.  I was surprised to see that there were only a bit over 400 problems rated above 2000 (standard rating).  With the top 10 rankings in the 2000 - 2300 range repeat problems will be a problem for anyone who does a fair number of problems at a sitting.

Maybe that is just the thing with hard problems that you'll ultimately have to live with; complexity means lots of options.  The task of the high rated user would be to find the absolute best or fail.  It is probably a choice between frustrating the high rated user and boring them with problem repetition. 

I guess the other alternative is finding more non-ambiguous high rated problems.  I'm not sure what goes into finding problems, I'm guessing it is a bit of work as it seems as if you're working off a static set right now.  Still over time that might be the only viable option.